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Style Soundtrack: 60s Art-Pop
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Play By Ear: This or That with Hot Chip
You can be with this or you could be with that.
| 02/17/2010 | Looks on the Street |
| 02/16/2010 | Heineken Green Room |
| 02/04/2010 | Young H Goes In: Jay Electronica |
| 02/03/2010 | Speak Easy: Nneka |
| 01/26/2010 | Play By Ear: January Mixtape |
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So many of you may be reading this because you anticipate reading the Wes Anderson interview since it was promised from the last Catz Out The Bag. Well I'm sorry to say that's not going to happen this week. Yes, there really was an interview with Wes Anderson that took place, but with the difficulty of not having an on staff transcriber, along with the madness going on around here at two.one.five with regards to the production of the the magazine going to print getting so close to deadline, well... it had to be delayed. But don't worry, we have a fine interview in the meantime -- a special conversation with Philly-based artists, photographer Zoe Strauss and filmmaker David Kessler.
Both were highlighted this past week at the First Person Film Festival for their documentary film "If You Break The Skin You Must Come In". I was invited to Zoe's quirky little studio in South Philly, which was actually a lot of fun. She offered me Pez candy packs from a giant R2D2 dispenser that played the Star Wars theme song when you titled the head back.
Oh and if David looks any bit familiar to you, it's because he was on the cover of "Philadelphia Weekly" recently. And if Zoe looks any bit familiar to you it's probably because she looks a lot like her brother, DJ Cosmo Baker.
Catzie Vilayphonh: So tell me a little bit about this documentary of yours, "If You Break the Skin, You Must Come In".
David Kessler: The Institute of Contemporary Arts and the Big Picture Alliance got together and wanted to make a film using the kids from the Achieving Independence Center who are in the Philadelphia Foster care system to make a film about Zoe Strauss and I was hired to direct. The kids worked with me and the producer, Esther Rosa, for five weeks and what ended up happening was that they kinda shaped it into a production where they were also able to tell their own stories. And then we all bonded and had a good time. [Laughs]
Zoe Strauss: That's pretty good, that's really good. You're killin' it!
C: So I know that that's the name of one of Zoe's photos, but who came up with the title?
ZS: I had this picture in my ramp project [at the ICA], it was a photograph that had been hidden in the wall. It had been keystone to the show, and when the project started, I had been thinking about it and then David said "Hey what about this as a title?" [Laughs]
DK: I was just staring at it and thinking to myself "What the hell does that mean?" And I still don't know what it means, but I was contemplating what it might mean and thinking we still need a title.
ZS: Yeah it was either that or "Do Not Knock On My Door, You'll Get Cursed Out" [Laughs]
ZS: Yeah it was either that or "Do Not Knock On My Door, You'll Get Cursed Out" [Laughs]
C: Initially, when I started watching the film, I thought the documentary was going to be all about Zoe, shot by the AIC foster kids with the help of David. But as the film went on, it became a lot about these other individuals as well. Was that something that was decided during the filmmaking process?
DK: That kind of change you experience in the film is pretty much the change in the project as we were working on it... but I guess it was mostly my decision after meeting the kids and seeing where they came from and hearing their stories, just seemed very obvious that they played a larger part in the film as well.
ZS: The intention of the film was just to be a brief film about me, very cut and dry. But as the project evolved, it begin to move into a much bigger project, with greater ambitions in the interests of everyone else. In addition to this regimented structure of learning, it allowed the kids to learn to tell their own stuff and have their own little narratives. For me, the most important part about the film was that it was an accurate representation of what the project was like -- these interactions we've had and how this was a unique and specific.
DK: But you do end up learning alot about Zoe, so in that sense theoriginal mission was accomplished ... it's just there are all these other elements.
ZS: You're right. But I think it's a difficult film because it's very transparent that there's all these things going on and you have to pay attention to what's happening ... but that's genuinely how it was and that's the way my life is. So... I say 'Yes'. Good Job, David! Good job! [Laughs]
C: In the beginning of the film there are opening credits, acknowledging all the organizations involved in the production of the documentary, but then right after it says The City of Philadelphia and the Department of Human Services did not approve or endorse this film and are not responsible for its content. Was that something you had to do for legal reasons, or were you trying to make a statement?
ZS: It was legally mandated.
DK: Yeah, when we were talking about the film taking on a life of its own, becoming something other than how we or anyone had originally imagined, what we ended up with a film that some of the institutions didn't expect or were prepared for. DHS was one of those institutions. Last year they had gone through a major scandal in the Inquirer. This film touches on subjects that, you know, the kids see and hear everyday, and we all see and hear everyday -- but they [DHS] were scared and they had prejudices that they wouldn't shake. It kinda turned into somewhat of a legal battle. There was a definitely a point where we were wondering if anyone was gonna see the film at all. They weren't willing to compromise or even talk to us about. In the end the best possible result came about. It's just they've separated themselves from the film.
DK: That kind of change you experience in the film is pretty much the change in the project as we were working on it... but I guess it was mostly my decision after meeting the kids and seeing where they came from and hearing their stories, just seemed very obvious that they played a larger part in the film as well.
ZS: The intention of the film was just to be a brief film about me, very cut and dry. But as the project evolved, it begin to move into a much bigger project, with greater ambitions in the interests of everyone else. In addition to this regimented structure of learning, it allowed the kids to learn to tell their own stuff and have their own little narratives. For me, the most important part about the film was that it was an accurate representation of what the project was like -- these interactions we've had and how this was a unique and specific.
DK: But you do end up learning alot about Zoe, so in that sense theoriginal mission was accomplished ... it's just there are all these other elements.
ZS: You're right. But I think it's a difficult film because it's very transparent that there's all these things going on and you have to pay attention to what's happening ... but that's genuinely how it was and that's the way my life is. So... I say 'Yes'. Good Job, David! Good job! [Laughs]
C: In the beginning of the film there are opening credits, acknowledging all the organizations involved in the production of the documentary, but then right after it says The City of Philadelphia and the Department of Human Services did not approve or endorse this film and are not responsible for its content. Was that something you had to do for legal reasons, or were you trying to make a statement?
ZS: It was legally mandated.
DK: Yeah, when we were talking about the film taking on a life of its own, becoming something other than how we or anyone had originally imagined, what we ended up with a film that some of the institutions didn't expect or were prepared for. DHS was one of those institutions. Last year they had gone through a major scandal in the Inquirer. This film touches on subjects that, you know, the kids see and hear everyday, and we all see and hear everyday -- but they [DHS] were scared and they had prejudices that they wouldn't shake. It kinda turned into somewhat of a legal battle. There was a definitely a point where we were wondering if anyone was gonna see the film at all. They weren't willing to compromise or even talk to us about. In the end the best possible result came about. It's just they've separated themselves from the film.
C: How was it working with the kids?ZS: When the project started, I didn't really have any goals. My biggest interest was that we all addressed critical thinking and skills that they could use and what that meant. We had been prepared for high school and college students, and these guys, their reading, writing and basic knowledge of art was less than what I had anticipated so it became completely different from what I had envisioned form the beginning. As it was going, I still had no goals, even if I knew what it was in my head I couldn't articulate what the goal was [Laughs]. What I wanted them to learn, to see, all that went out the window. The syllabus became irrelevant after genuinely seeing that they were much more advanced in intuitively getting what my work was about. There was no concept from moment to moment so the process was genuinely organic.
DK: There was really no way to anticipate what was going to happen before we started shooting. We dealt with the ICA and they had specific educational goals, and I was hoping to teach them the fundamentals of filmmaking. So everybody came with a list of different accomplishments. But we started seeing that some of those things were not reasonable, and maybe that's a balance because of this ... but really the kids they got it very quickly. These moments where these kids are saying "I didnt know that can be art" you can see them changing the way they view their lives and the world around them -- that was one of the first days. That was really amazing.
C: Do you keep in touch with any of them still?
ZS: Almost of of them. I'd like to keep in touch with all of them.
C: And now, David, you're working on a new project that's been inspired by working with Zoe.
C: Do you keep in touch with any of them still?
ZS: Almost of of them. I'd like to keep in touch with all of them.
C: And now, David, you're working on a new project that's been inspired by working with Zoe.
DK: Yeah, the Shadow World Project, which a somewhat weekly video blog of 2-3 minute videos. I'm originally a painter, so alot of it is just looking for interesting shots, but it became something where I was interested in hearing people's stories. I've always been fascinated with that stretch under the El, I guess it's mostly Kensington.
This is probably like the 4th or 5th time that's its popped up in my work. I've done an illustrated documentary thing in the Dunkin Donuts on Broad Street a while ago but I really didn't have that connection to the people I was talking to, but
after working on this project it opened my eyes on what I might be capable of doing. Spending time with Zoe and seeing how she interacts with people on the street was really educational for me. That's been going since about January, so now I'm closing in on the end of the year and focusing on a show at the Bambi Gallery where the exhibition where it'll be more of an installation where you can go in and see the videos and get a different experience from just seeing it on a computer.
C: Zoe, I've noticed that many of your pictures include signs and the compositions are very centralized, the subjects are always dead center -- I could almost dissect it and end up with symmetrical pieces, which is interesting considering that in photography class they always tell you not to do that.
after working on this project it opened my eyes on what I might be capable of doing. Spending time with Zoe and seeing how she interacts with people on the street was really educational for me. That's been going since about January, so now I'm closing in on the end of the year and focusing on a show at the Bambi Gallery where the exhibition where it'll be more of an installation where you can go in and see the videos and get a different experience from just seeing it on a computer.
C: Zoe, I've noticed that many of your pictures include signs and the compositions are very centralized, the subjects are always dead center -- I could almost dissect it and end up with symmetrical pieces, which is interesting considering that in photography class they always tell you not to do that.
ZS: There's a lot of things that go into it. The appeal [with text] is to keep the viewer moving, so there's a minimum of text that I have there. It kinda leaves a viewer thinking about the continuation of what that text means and why it was there.
It really depends on the body of my work, when you move around the photos it feels as if you're reading them. In that context, it changes all the time what text is appropriate to go with the other photos and what it means on its own... It's just a constant editing process. And it's aesthetically pleasing to me to be centered and it's also very standard snapshot photography. I prefer a linear gridded structure, there's a great balance in it.
It really depends on the body of my work, when you move around the photos it feels as if you're reading them. In that context, it changes all the time what text is appropriate to go with the other photos and what it means on its own... It's just a constant editing process. And it's aesthetically pleasing to me to be centered and it's also very standard snapshot photography. I prefer a linear gridded structure, there's a great balance in it.
C: There are some pictures where I'll look at the background and automatically know where it is, even though the surroundings may not be the focus of the photo - like the one with the older woman standing on the corner, that's on 7th& Wolf, right in front of the Cambodian Pho Restaurant -ZS: Pnomh Penh Restaurant? I love that place!
C: Do you willfully put pieces of Philly in your pictures?
ZS: My project comes out of a very personal place. This is where I'm from and where I live. So all of it comes back to having a personal knowledge of this space, including other spaces and from people within my own life, and a love of this place that I'm from. Many of them represent a lot of Philadelphia to me. It's never an intent to say "I'm including Philadelphia", it's more integral than that. It's more a part of myself than it is an idea of keeping it in the work.
C: There seems to be this criticism of artists who focus on distressed people, people in certain conditions because they get to make money off art based on these people's experiences. Since many of your subjects are also poor people, people addicted to drugs, etc, do you ever find yourself trying to prove that you're not one of these artists taking advantage of the situation?
DK: I think in both our cases it's a not a matter of trying to prove ourselves if you look at the work. There's almost no way, if you really give it the chance to understand what we're dealing with, to see that there's no exploitation at all.
ZS: I agree. There are always valid questions, especially about my work having someone's image and having to profit from someone's image in the future, but the intent of my work is a large body of work. It's not neccesarily rooted in place so much, although it's very personal, so it's rooted in Philadelphia. No I don't really feel like I am...
DK: The thing is, yes there are drug addicts, and yes there's a prostitute, but to say that either of us focus on that is completely wrong. It's one element that people latch onto to and maybe in their minds they see a hundred images but in the end then they remember 'Oh there's that toothless prostitute". It just takes a viewer that's a little bit more dedicated to understand our project. Negative criticism is inevitable but I think in most case where perceived I've been able to have a discussion and in most cases they become my biggest fan.
DK: The thing is, yes there are drug addicts, and yes there's a prostitute, but to say that either of us focus on that is completely wrong. It's one element that people latch onto to and maybe in their minds they see a hundred images but in the end then they remember 'Oh there's that toothless prostitute". It just takes a viewer that's a little bit more dedicated to understand our project. Negative criticism is inevitable but I think in most case where perceived I've been able to have a discussion and in most cases they become my biggest fan.
ZS: Yeah that's really admirable. Because I would just punch somebody dead in the face. [Laughs] But our work is very different, because your work [talking to David] is rooted in place, this specific avenue, this kind of channel and the idea of above and underneath, and who the people are they live there. It's a different kind of interaction and the criticism you got was someone who hadn't seen the project on the whole and what the project was meant to be and its entirety is a representation of place and inhabitants of place. It isn't necessarily about the difference between these people and other people in the world who don't see this kind of poverty, or addiction, or difficulty in day-to-day life.
Although I have to say, living in the city, that is a part of daily life in Philadelphia regardless of where you live. It's a part of our life and part of our inevitbilitily, and so it means often that people tend to avoid it and so [later] people tend to focus on the difficult things and say "What's up with that?" DK: It's an extra challenge. That was one that people in the community put upon me, which 'm not willing to accept that, which is to feel like I am responsible for representing the neighborhood. And its often the people living in this neighborhood challenging me and saying "Kensington's not all like that." Well I realize that and I show that, but it's true it's all there but it doesn't make any sense to deny it.
ZS: It's like everything. It's like all things, it's not one thing, but to pretend that the things that are more difficult is something to not show is preposperous.
ZS: It's like everything. It's like all things, it's not one thing, but to pretend that the things that are more difficult is something to not show is preposperous.
C: Zoe, you've said that you believe that art should be more accessible to regular everyday people, which is why you had that outside exhibit underneath I-95. And that in high art there's this perception where it only appeals to a certain percentage of people in a certain age group, and educational demographic. Yet, you acknowledge that your work being in the Whitney Museum of Art as a big deal and there's a even a part in the film -- which happens to be my favorite scene -- where you're showing a group of people around the Philadelphia Art Museum and you talk about it as being the third most important place in your life before screaming "I'm in the fucking Art Museum!" How do you explain these two extremes?
ZS: Who can deny how awesome that is when you're in the Art Museum? [Laughs] Well a part of it is that accessibility doesn't mean exclusively being in these places that eschews high art, which includes musuems and galleries. They're part of that continuum of having everyone see this work. I have a strong interest on art, I love museums and they've played a very important role in my life, so I'm interested in being included in this larger group of artists whose work has been recognized by institutions. It was unexpected and very pleasurable. It doesn't alter the structure of work that I do, it doesn't change the project. I don't see it as competing with it, it's just another component. And who doesn't like to be recognized? Especially if it's by institutions or people that I respect? What about you David Kessler, now that you've had that big article in the Philadelphia Weekly?
DK: Well I'm not in any museums, I'd love to be in a museum -
ZS: Well you're in the museum of my house!
DK: [Mocking] You're in the museum of my heart.[Laughs]
DK: Well I'm not in any museums, I'd love to be in a museum -
ZS: Well you're in the museum of my house!
DK: [Mocking] You're in the museum of my heart.[Laughs]
C: Did you guys know each other before the project?
ZS: No.
DK: I got a phone call saying "We've seen your work, we think you'd be a good dIrector. Have you heard of Zoe Strauss?" And I was like 'Yeah... I've heard of her'.
ZS: No.
DK: I got a phone call saying "We've seen your work, we think you'd be a good dIrector. Have you heard of Zoe Strauss?" And I was like 'Yeah... I've heard of her'.
ZS: And look at how it all worked out!
To see more of Zoe's Strauss's photos visit her website at zoestrauss.com
To watch David Kessler's video blogs check out Shadow World Blog.
For more information about the First Person Film Festival go to firstpersonfestival.org.
For more information about the First Person Film Festival go to firstpersonfestival.org.
Next Feature: Wes Anderson talks about the making if The Darjeeling Limited with Jason Schwartzman and Roman Coppola. Seriously this time.
